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Published discussions 1965-1983

1965 Thought, stillness and time

Six Small Group Discussions in Switzerland 
Also present: Saral Bohm, Margo Laborde, Robin Monro, Alain Naudé, and Mary Zimbalist.

15.8.    1. Is thought detrimental? (audio 63 min)

Why does one seek pleasure? Why does one seek pleasure? Can the mind only face facts and not thought? Why have I never said, 'Thought is poison,' to myself? Meeting something one doesn't know, facing something which has no answer. Acting without knowing. What is a state of mind which is silent? Time is detrimental. Are we twisting everything to our core of pleasure? 

18.8.    2. Am I aware of the process of thinking? (audio 60 min)

Can I see that thought is destructive, except where it is essential? Why is it that we don't see something immediately? Do you know when you are thinking? Is the thing that we call thinking, thinking at all? Do you think from the background noise when a problem arises? When the mind becomes totally aware of the background, is there thinking when a problem arises? What happens when I am aware of this hum, this noise incessantly going on? Is the background noise different from the observer? How am I to live an everyday life with complete silence?

21.8.    3. What will make me see that thought breeds frustration? (audio 78 min)

What is the function of thought? Can the mind see the fact that thought will always breed frustration? Function is necessary, but function with status, position and power must breed frustration. Without frustration thought says to itself, 'I am not seeking. I don't want anything.' If there is no thought, what happens? The very perception of the limitation of thought is the act of opening the door, rather than thought opening the door. To function without prestige, without frustration, that itself is an extraordinary state, meaning to function without self-centred activity.

24.8.    4. From where do attachment and detachment come from? (audio 65 min)

What is the relationship of the brain to the totality of the mind? Fear of not being, fear of isolation, fear of not having pleasure, fear of having no relationship, is the soil from which the stem of contradiction grows. I want to be free of this stem to see what happens if there is no attachment, no detachment, because I am not afraid. Is there a peace with no entity saying, 'I am peaceful'?

25.8.    5. A complete stillness (audio 65 min) 

Is there a single movement that will completely transform my whole way of life? The passion is there but the perfume doesn't take place. What am I to do? Am I in a position of a man who for the first time is walking on a road by himself and discovering? Does one know what a complete stillness means? It is only from a very still mind that a mutation takes place. Is there an ending to thought, therefore an ending to time? If I have no thought and therefore no time, and so no wasting of energy, there is no movement, therefore there is complete stillness. Is it possible to look at everything without thought, therefore without time, and so walk with silence? 

29.8.     6. When the mind is completely quiet, how can there be time? (audio 85 min) 

What does time mean to you, as a human being? Is there such thing as existence? Quietness has come because I have understood the nature of time, function, thought and pleasure. What takes place when there is great intensity? Thought has a movement in function. Here there is no movement which thought can recognise, because thought is not coming into this at all. When time comes to an end, is there distance and space? If you look at the mountain without the layer of thought as function, as the experiencer, what is space? When there is no experiencer, no thinker, in that stillness is there time? Time exists only when there is an observer.

1972    Discussion on Intelligence

7.10.1972    On intelligence (90 min) 

Thought is a material process. What is the relationship between that and intelligence? Thought is mechanical, measurable, a movement in time. Is intelligence mechanical, in time? Does intelligence use thought? Thought is a pointer. Without intelligence the pointer has no value. Politically, religiously and psychologically thought has created a world of tremendous contradiction and fragmentation. Can life be guided by intelligence and lived in harmony? The desire for intelligence has created the image of God. Thought must be completely still for the awakening of intelligence. You come upon it when you see the whole. The quality of a mind that sees the whole is not touched by thought. Therefore there is perception and insight.

1975    Truth, actuality and the limits of thought

12 conversations, three (1, 3 and 4) published in Truth and Actuality 1977, five in The Limits of Thought 1999 and five in mp3 audio.

18.5.    1. What is truth and what is reality? (audio 69 min) 

What is truth and what is reality? Anything that thought thinks about or reflects upon or projects, that is reality. And that reality has nothing to do with truth. The art of seeing is to place reality where it is, and not move that in order to get truth. You can't get truth. How am I to empty that consciousness and yet retain knowledge - otherwise I couldn't function - and reach a state which will comprehend reality?

24.5.   2. Living in truth  (audio 122 min)

If truth is something totally different from reality then what place has action in daily life, in relation to truth and reality? Seeing what is is action. What place has love in truth? When I separate you, in that separation love cannot exist. How are you to convey the sense of truth to a student? As long as I live in the field of reality, which has its own energy, that energy will not free me. When the mind is empty, when the mind is nothing, not a thing, in that there is perception.

31.5.    3. Thought cannot bring about an insight  (audio 81 min) 

Is there a thinking without the word? The action brought about by thought into the investigation of an analysis is always incomplete. Insight is complete. It is not fragmented as thought is. So thought cannot bring about an insight. I must have an insight into conditioning otherwise I can't dissolve it. What takes place when I have an insight that the observer is the observed? In nothingness there is complete security and stability.

14.6.    4. How does desire arise from perception? (audio 87 min) 

Why has desire become such an extraordinarily important thing in life? How does desire arise from perception? Can I desire truth? Is the energy of nothingness different from the energy of things? Is that nothingness a hypothesis, a theory, a verbal structure, or truth? In dying to the reality only then there is nothingness. 

22.6.    5. Attention implies that there is no centre (audio 124 min) 

Consciousness, because it is in constant movement, has never found an energy which is not contradictory, which is not produced by desire and thought. Can thought ever see its own movement and the futility of its own movement? Attention implies that there is no centre. Is there a perception, a seeing outside the space which is part of consciousness? There are two human beings, one gets conditioned and the other doesn't. Why? How has it happened the other doesn't get conditioned? How does this perception which is beyond attention, beyond awareness, beyond concentration come about? Thought is rather superficial, it's merely a very small part of the operation of the brain. Can consciousness be completely empty of its content? Order and disorder.

28.6.    6. Perceiving without the perceiver (audio 139 min) 

Can thought naturally cease? Perceiving without the perceiver Facing the truth of death Krishnamurti's 'process' and early years. Kundalini If you can understand suffering, face it and not escape from it, that has quite a different energy. Truth is a pathless land. There is something really tremendously mysterious. Knowledge is becoming the curse. When the mind, with all the confusion, is nothing, not a thing, then perhaps there is the other.

18.7.    7. If thought cannot achieve, why should it suffer? (audio 101 min)

How does science investigate the mysterious? If thought cannot achieve, why should it suffer? Can consciousness, which is filled with the things of thought, empty itself? Thought cannot possibly apprehend, comprehend or be aware of the whole. Time. Krishnamurti's early years.

25.7.    8. What is the substance of thought? (audio 105 min) 

What is the basic reason for thought to be fragmented? What is the substance of thought? Is it a material process, a chemical process? There is a total perception, which is truth. That perception acts in the field of reality. That action is not the product of thought. Thought has no place when there is total perception. Thought never acknowledges to itself that it is mechanical. Total perception can only exist when the centre is not.

6.8.     9. Is there in the brain anything untouched by culture? (audio 110 min) 

Can there be a total perception which completely heals the brain? What benefit has culture? Does speech come before thought? Is it possible to say something without the operation of thought? Is there in the brain anything untouched by culture? Is attention a conscious process? Is love the factor of profound change? You explain all this, and you say that whatever the damaged brain - which is the result of thought and tradition and all the rest of it - whatever it does will produce further damage. So, because you point it out, I realise that. That is the first necessity - I realise it. Then, after I've realised it, you talk to me at a depth which thought has not touched. You planted a seed.

27.9.    10. Truth does not belong to an individual (audio 75 min) 

Krishnamurti's 'process' and his early years. Suffering. The Indian tradition says that there is a manifestation of goodness which happens very rarely. Truth does not belong to an individual. What one says is truth. But it becomes truth to me only when I have washed away my selfishness. To stay with - not the word, not the description, not the person - but to stay with that penetrating truth.

4.10.    11. What is wisdom is not a movement of thought (audio 110 min) 

Wisdom, intelligence and truth. If there is attention is there choice? Why has man divided perception? What is wisdom which is not the movement of thought? What place has the man who perceives truth in this world of reality? Truth operating in one brain clears that brain. Mustn't there be emptiness for the perception of truth? Consciousness.

11.10.    12. Can the brain free itself from all self-delusion? (audio 85 min)

Thought and the brain. Can the brain free itself from all self-delusion? Why has the self become important? Can there be only sensation, thought, and no desire? Can desire - which brings illusion, self-deception and all the complications of changing desires - can the root of desire be dissipated? What prevents one from having a real insight? That is, seeing the truth of desire and therefore end it. Is it that we have never asked this question? When there is no desire whatsoever then there is a total revolution, and that will affect the consciousness of man. Is there a movement, an action that keeps the brain pure, uncontaminated?

1976    Transformation of Man

Seven discussions with doctor David Shainberg, published on DVD with a 10-minute introduction and in the book The Wholeness of Life 1978.

17.5.    1. Are we aware that we are fragmented? (video 60 min)

How can one be aware of the wholeness of life if one is fragmented? I am a fragment and therefore am creating more fragments, more conflict, more confusion, more sorrow. Is the centre the very cause of fragmentation? Does the beginning of fragmentation take place when I am seeking security? Is security in knowledge, used wrongly, one of the factors of fragmentation? Can I be free of the desire to be psychologically secure? 

18.5.    2. A mechanical way of living leads to disorder (video 61 min) 

Is there psychological security at all, a sense of well-founded, deep-rooted existence? When you hear that there is no security, is it an abstract idea or an actual fact? My security lies in some image, a picture, a conclusion, an ideal. The brain needs order in order to function. It finds order in mechanical process because it is trained from childhood to do so. When the past meets the present and continues, it is one of the factors of time, bondage, fear. But when the past meets the present and I am completely aware of this moment, then it stops. Then I meet you as though for the first time.

18.5.    3. Can I completely change at the very root? (video 62 min)

Why do human beings live in such appalling misery, accepting it for millennia? Is it possible for a human being to change at the very root of his being? Who is going to tell me? Is it Marx, Lenin, Mao, the Pope, or the local priest? Authority exists because human beings are in disorder. In the rejection of authority I become very sane. When I reject authority I have more energy. What is correct action in life? I can only find that out if there is no disorder in me. 'Me' is the disorder. However 'real' the 'me' is, it is the source of disorder. 

19.5.    4. In aloneness you can be completely secure (video 69 min) 

Do human beings not radically transform themselves because they are really frightened not to belong to a group, to something definite? Are they afraid to stand completely alone? To be alone implies not to carry the burden of tradition with you. Tradition being knowledge. To be alone implies total freedom. Alone is all one, when there is no fragmentation. That is total order. Can we step out of the stream of this utter confusion, disorder, sorrow, hope, travail, and despair?
Our whole society, all religion, all culture is based on thought. Does thought realize it has made this mess, this chaos? Is thought aware of itself as a movement, which brings about a fragmentary action? When the movement of thought comes to an end, there is total action. When you are faced with fact, there is no fear. 

19.5.    5. Your image prevents relationship with others (video 58 min) 

Is there such a thing as the unconscious? The process of fragmentation is a state of mind that divides, that says there is the unconscious and the conscious. Every human being has an image of himself of which he is unconscious, not aware. What is the origin of making images about oneself?
Who is the image-maker? What is the machinery or the process that is making images? Our consciousness is our images, conclusions, ideas. If there is no image-making then what is consciousness? As long as we have images there is not going to be peace in the world, there will be no love in the world. If one remains with the fact there is a transformation.

20.5.    6. Any image prevents the beauty of relationship (video 68 min) 

What will bring about a radical transformation in the total consciousness of human beings? Right relationship begins with the realization of the responsibility I have for myself. Is the observer different from that which is observed? If there is a difference between the observer and the observed there is division, and therefore conflict. My consciousness is the consciousness of the world because it is filled with the things of thought sorrow, fear, pleasure, despair, attachment. In that state you cannot have any relationship with any human being. When there is no movement of thought, which is the image-making, what then takes place? When there are none of the things that create division, what comes into being?

20.5.    7. Life is sacred (video 57 min) 

Do you know what it means to love somebody? Without compassion, human beings are destroying themselves. Is compassion the result of the ending of sorrow, the universal sorrow Have an insight into sorrow, not the sorrow of thought but the universal sorrow of mankind; and out of that insight is compassion. Is compassion the end of all life, end of all death? A real, penetrating meditation brings insight. 

21.5.   Introduction (video 9 min)

Introduction to 'The transformation of man' series 

1978    Dialogues with Buddhist scholars

Participants: Walpola Rahula, Irmgard Schloegel, Giddu Narayan

22.6.    1. We are all caught in the idea of progress (video 99 min)

Q: Does knowledge condition human beings? Knowledge means accumulation of information, experience, various facts, theories and principles, the past and the present. All that bundle we call knowledge. Can a mind that is burdened with knowledge see truth? Will we get more knowledge by reading this or that, what the Buddha said, what Christ said? We are full of this accumulative instinct that we think will help us to jump into heaven. Can I look at the fact without the word, with all its intimations, all its content, its tradition? Can I look at something without the word, without the association of words, without past remembrances? Then only I see the fact.

23.6.    2. Can we live without identifying? (video 94 min)

Q: What is the state of the mind that is in the process of dying? What is death? Is there life after death, is there a continuity? If not, what is the point of living at all? Why is there the whole process of identification, my possessions, what I will be, success, power, prestige? The identification process is the essence of the self. Is it possible to live in daily life without this identification process which brings about the structure and the nature of the self which is the result of thought? Is it possible to be free of the "me", which produces all this chaos, this constant effort? Can thought end? Is it possible to live a daily life with death, which is the ending of the self?

23.6.    3. Does free will exist? (video 115 min)

We say free will exists because we can choose between this and that. Apart from material things, why is there choice? Is there an action in which there is no effort of will at all and therefore no choice? Why does thought identify with sensations? Is there duality in identification? How did thought begin in me? Was it handed down by my parents, by education, by environment, by the past? Does the word create the thought or thought creates words? Why does thought enter into action? Is there an action which is complete, total, whole, not partial? Can you see someone as a whole being? Then there is love.

1980    The Ending of Time

Fifteen dialogues published in the book The Ending of Time. Giddu Narayan was present in dialogues 9 and 10.

1.4.    1. The roots of psychological conflict (audio 82 min) 

Has humanity taken a wrong turn? What is the root of inward conflict of humanity? When I am trying to become something it is a constant battle. Can the brain itself see that it is caught in time and moving in that direction conflict is eternal, endless? Can the mind realise, resolve a psychological problem immediately? Has mankind journeyed through millennia to come to this: that I am nothing and therefore I am everything and all energy?

2.4.    2. Cleansing the mind of the accumulation of time (audio 79 min) 

Time is the enemy of man. Is there a beginning which is not enmeshed in time? Nothingness is everything and so it is total energy. It is undiluted pure, uncorrupted energy. Is there something beyond that? Has man ever been free from the 'I'? That emptiness can only exist when there is death of the particular.

8.4.    3. Why we give supreme importance to thought? (audio 84 min)

Is the ground of existence indifferent to mankind as the physical universe appears to be? Is there something more than the merely physical? Theories are inwardly of no use at all.

10.4.    4. Breaking the pattern of ego-centred activity (audio 79 min) 

What will make a human being change, deeply, fundamentally, radically? Will I as a human being give up my egocentric activity completely and discard all knowledge I have acquired? What happens when I meet something completely solid, immovable, and absolutely true? Psychological knowledge has made us dull.

12.4.    5. The ground of being and the mind of man (audio 71 min) 

Why has having ideas become so important? What is the difference between a religious and a philosophic mind? What is the human mind's relationship to the ground?

15.4.  6. Can insight bring about a mutation of the brain cells? (audio 95 min)

Insight is not dependent on the material process of thought. Where there is violence, peace cannot exist. Insight has no cause. The material process acts in darkness. This flash of insight enlightens the whole field and dispels darkness.

17.4.    7. Death has very little meaning (9audio 96 min) 

Is there a totally different way of approaching the whole turmoil of life? The centre is creating darkness and disorder. The man who is living in darkness can move away at any time to the other. What happens to a mind that has no conflict?

19.4.    8. Can insight be awakened in another? (audio 77 min)

What is the relationship to society of a man who has insight? What is his action with regard to war and the whole world?
What is the significance of mankind in the universe? We reduce immensity to our pettiness and put it in a temple. To divert the course of man's destruction somebody must listen.

1.6.    9. Senility and the brain cells (video 90 min) 

Is the human brain deteriorating? The brain is not a particular brain; it doesn't belong to anyone. Can the brain have enough energy to break all patterns and move out of it? Psychological knowledge is a factor of the shrinking of the brain? An insight into the nature of time breaks down the very brain cells. The brain cells must bring about a change in themselves. Meditation is insight.

7.6.    10. Cosmic order (video 69 min) 

An order which is not man-made. Can the brain be free from the impositions, pressures, bruises, all the trivialities of existence? Time is my whole existence. We take refuge in the past, which can not be changed. Why does the brain accept this way of living, why doesn't it break it down? As long as my roots are in the past there can be no order. If the universe is not of time, can the mind which has been entangled in time, unravel itself and be the universe?

14.9.    11. The liberation of insight (video 73 min) 

Can insight wipe away the whole movement of being tied, attached, dependent and lonely? Measurement exists only where there is disorder. We live in a man-made world and are the result of man-made minds. What is the relationship between love and hatred?

16.9.    12. The intelligence of love (video 60 min) 

Thought is the outcome of psychological accumulation. Why do all human beings have the urge to become? In accumulation, man has sought psychological security, and that security with its accumulation is the factor of human division. Perception without any motive and direction is intelligence and love.

18.9.   13. The ending of psychological knowledge  (video 55 min) 

Why are our minds always operating in a certain direction? What shall I as a human being do realizing that knowledge is naturally, inevitably forming that in which we live? How am I to break down a groove I have formed? Pure observation is love. A serious man comes to the fundamental question: what will make this wall totally disappear?

20.9.    14. The mind in the universe (video 51 min) 

Thought is a material process. Only the insight into the nature of reaction ends psychological reaction. There is absolute stillness and in or from that stillness there is a movement which is everlastingly new. Freedom is not a reaction. There is the universal mind, and the human mind can be of that when there is freedom.

27.9.    15. Can problems be solved and fragmentation end? (video 70 min)

Why have human beings not been able to resolve problems of life? What prevents the solution of these problems completely? Is love common to all of us? From the particular move to the general, from the general move away still deeper. There is purity of thing called compassion, love and intelligence. Give your mind and heart to this.

Discussion with Asit Chandmal

1.4.1981   Is the brain different from a computer? (video 120 min) 

The anatomy of insight and the differences between brain and computer.

Discussion with Maurice Wilkins

12.2.1982    The difficulty of thinking together (video 56 min) 

What prevents us from thinking together? Love without thought. Awareness of unity. Fear of death.

The Nature of the Mind

Four discussions with biologist Rupert Sheldrake and psychiatrist John Hidley

16.4.    1. Roots of psychological disorder (video 58 min) 

Q: What is the source of psychological disorder? Is not the self the beginning of all disorder? I have created society through my anxiety, through my desire for security, through my desire to have power. Like the animal. It's biologically inherited. Also my own individualistic activity has created this society. Is it possible to be free of my conditioning? If my relationship with life is not 'right' how can I find out something that's immensely beyond all this, beyond time, beyond thought, beyond measure? Will knowledge transform me? Is there a deep, abiding security? 

17.4.    2. Psychological suffering (video 58 min) 

What is security? I have an image about myself. I am a great cook, a great scientist, a great carpenter, whatever you will. I have got that picture in myself and you come along and put a pin into it. And that gets hurt, the image gets hurt. The image is me. What is a human being? You are not basically different from me. You may be tall, you may be born in England, I may be born in Africa, I have dark skin, but deep down, the river, the content of the river is the water. The river is not an Asiatic river or European river, it is a river. Love is not English, American or Indian. Agony is not yours or mine, it is agony. But we identify ourselves with agony - it is my agony, which is not yours. Why do we want to identify with something? Is there a learning about oneself which is not constant accumulation about myself?

17.4.    3. The need for security (video 59 min) 

Why do we want security?
Am I separate from the agony I go through? When one is frightened, actually, there is no me separate from fear. The whole content of one's consciousness is unclear, messy. There is no part of it that is clear. We think there is a part, which is the observer, separating himself from the mess. The observer is the observed. When there is observation that consciousness is messy, that fact can only exist when there is total attention. When there is total attention, confusion doesn't exist anymore. It is only inattention that creates the problems. If I know how to read myself I don't need anybody to tell me. But we have never attempted deeply to read the book of myself. I come to you and say, 'Please, help me to read,' and then the whole thing is lost. You must be free to examine. Free from your prejudice, from your previous experience, otherwise you can't examine. You can't investigate. Investigare means explore, push it, push it, further and further. Are you willing to do that, so that actually the self is not? 

18.4.   4. What is a healthy mind? (video 55 min)

What is analysis and what is observation? Attention implies a great deal of care, affection, love. It's not just mental attention, it's attention with all your being. You have established a kind of relationship, perhaps very profound, when there is love. I may reject you but you have that responsibility of love - not only to the particular person but to the whole of humanity.
What is an enemy? Is there such thing as an enemy? I am mankind. Because I suffer or I enjoy, I go through all the tortures, and so do you. You are the rest of mankind, and therefore you have a terrible responsibility for that, in that. Is there anything sacred in life? Not thought creating something sacred and then worshipping that as sacred, which is absurd. If there is something beyond, why do we create the symbol, the intermediary? If I want to find out if there is anything sacred I must start very near. The very near is me. Can I free myself from fear, agony, sorrow, despair? When there is freedom I can move, I can climb mountains. Is silence of the mind a state of attention? What is a healthy mind?

The future of humanity

1983    Two discussions published in the book of the same name and new edition of "The Ending of time".

11.6.    Is there an action not touched by thought? (video 82 min)

What is the future of man? All the problems that humanity has now, psychologically and in other ways, are the result of thought. We are pursuing the same pattern of thought. Thought will never solve our problems. The whole structure of the 'me' is put together by thought. The 'me' is my consciousness, which is my name, form and experiences. Is consciousness individual or is there one inseparable consciousness of mankind? Action born of limited thought must inevitably breed conflict. Dividing humanity geographically and religiously has created havoc in the world. The 'me' is a divisive entity. Why is there division? 

20.6.    Is there evolution of consciousness? (video 67 min)

Can the consciousness of mankind be changed through time? Is the brain conditioned physically, chemically? Is psychological conditioning centred in the self? The conditioning which determines the self is creating great damage. Can conditioned brain cells change? As long as the brain is conditioned its relationship to the mind is limited. When it is not conditioned, is the brain the instrument of the mind? If the brain is quiet, is it related to the mind? Is intelligence different from perception? Is the action of perception itself intelligence?